William Chandlee

WC: I did.

DS: And you lived here with your father?

WC: No. My father and mother lived in the country, and they only went in on it to please me, and because I didn’t have enough money. I was working at the Art Museum at the time, and I didn’t have – I just had modest means

DS: And your reason for coming to Society Hill? Because of your friends?

WC: Partially. I tell you, I knew I was never going to be able to save money, and the only thing that was going to help me out in my old age was real estate, and especially if I could have a bit of income from the real estate. I mean, that was – I also thought (2:00) it might be good for my parents, at least when they got old. I was unmarried. I had two married sisters with families of their own. I honestly, really thought it would help me out in my old age. And my father said, “You know, your mother and I will go in on this with you, but we’ll never see anything out of it.” Well, my father lived here for almost 24 years, rent- and rate-free. Only had to pay his telephone bill, I think. He did most of the design, the installation of the bookshelves, the porch at the back. I knew what I wanted, but he made it work. He was an architect.

DS: So while he was living here he made it work?

WC: No, he did it before. I moved in as soon as we bought the place. There was no stove or anything. There was a little lavatory, which still exists right behind the (3:00) kitchen. I managed. Neighbors were very kind. One of them gave me a two-burner stove for coffee and whatever.

DS: So you had electricity?

WC: I had electricity.

DS: You had plumbing.

WC: I had plumbing. Yes, for a while I had no sink, except a little tiny sink like that in the lavatory.

DS: So you were living here and fixing it up yourself.

WC: I was, yes.

DS: Who did you buy it from?

WC: The Redevelopment Authority.

DS: Oh, so you went around and looked at other houses too?

WC: Actually, even in 1963 I was a bit late in the game, and the people whom I knew down here and whom I got to know, had already four, five, and six years before, bought houses. But I wanted a place in town, and I liked the neighborhood, and (4:00) I liked all the people who were doing the restoration of these old buildings.

DS: So you knew this neighborhood was going to get better.

WC: I did. I had great faith in it. There was no question about it.

DS: How much did you pay for the house?

WC: [Laughs] I knew you were going to ask that. I think about $7,600. Well, I told you I got the garden for $400.

DS: That was an addition?

WC: That was an addition.

DS: Did you add any piece to the house?

WC: No, it hasn’t got any bigger. It’s been changed. This whole back, which I made my apartment, it’s a duplex upstairs. That I kept for myself. There are three apartments, which make it viable for me. And I made sure they all had period fireplaces.

DS: That work? (5:00)

WC: Oh, yes, they all work. I have two fireplaces. I use this all the time. And one upstairs in the sitting room. They all work. And the place reads as a single house, with the exception of four names out front. And the apartments are very nice, and they’re usually always tenanted. I’m grateful for that.

DS: You tried to keep as much of the original house as possible.

WC: I did.

DS: Restoring the inside and not making it contemporary.

WC: There’s nothing contemporary at all. It all has a period feel and a period look.

DS: So your involvement with Redevelopment Authority was uncomplicated?

WC: Yes, it couldn’t have been nicer, actually.

DS: They told you what you needed to do to the front?

WC: Yes, and as you look at the front now, at one point we had some bricklayers who had started the job, and I practically panicked. I said, “No, it’s not going to work. (6:00) You’re not doing it right.” And so – it’s been so long ago, I don’t remember their names – the head of that bricklaying firm came down and did it himself. And if you look at it from out front, you can really see absolutely nothing, no change in the brickwork from where it was taken out all the way to the top of the house. It looks great. And I think the people next door used the same man to rehab their façade.

DS: So there had been a big window in front?

WC: Yes, a big plate-glass window. It’s covered over with plywood here, as you see in the photograph.

DS: So it was a big, open store.

WC: Yes, and curiously enough, the house was on the first house tour down here. (7:00) You may wonder why. I was with some friends – I was talking with friends who, I guess, were organizing it or on the committee, and so I said, “Well, why don’t you do my house?” And they all laughed. I said, “Well, you know, wouldn’t people be interested in seeing what a beat-up old house looks like before the restoration?” They said that was an OK idea. I made on poster board – I can draw pretty well – and I drew the house at different stages, so people could see it when they came in. And curiously enough, on the day of the house tour, the first people who came in were Ed Bacon and his wife.

DS: Oh, my. [Laughs]

WC: And he couldn’t have been more pleasant or more complimentary.

DS: And do you have any idea of the year? Are we talking ’63? ’64?

WC: We’re talking 1810 or ’12. (8:00)

DS: No, I mean when the house tour was.

WC: Oh, it almost has to have been ’63, possibly ’64, but I think ’63.

DS: So, now, you were telling me 18 something was the date of this house. Tell me the history on the house.

WC: As far as I know, it was built in 1810 or 1812, and beyond that I don’t know.

DS: You don’t know who built it?

WC: I don’t. It’s possible that somebody knows.

DS: It hadn’t been lived in, when you bought it.

WC: Yes, it was. Oh, no, it was totally empty when Redevelopment Authority turned it over to me. But it had been used, as I say, by the Spruce Street Luncheonette, and upstairs there were about four or five very small apartments, with mezuzahs (9:00) or whatever they’re called outside the doors. I think it was largely Jewish occupied, because there were a lot of synagogues in the neighborhood. There was a large Jewish population.

DS: You think it was – these were apartments, not boarding rooms.

WC: Now that I don’t know. Could easily have been boarding rooms. There was – on both these houses, they had fire escapes on the way up to the top.

DS: In the front?

WC: No, on the outside, in the back. They were the first things to come off.

DS: Tell me, what you yourself did to the inside of the house. You had a staircase?

WC: I put in this – I say, “I.” I had it done. The staircase to the second floor, I’ll show you. There are two rooms and a bath on the second floor. Also, I had – my father designed this very attractive loggia out here. I’ll show you afterwards. It has very (10:00) nice, on the second floor, the verandah has very nice, early 19 th century, cast iron grapery all around it. It’s small, but it works, and it’s nice. I built – every stone, every brick in the garden I laid myself. Every single one. I made the fountain and the fountain head.

DS: It looks like you had fun.

WC: I did. All the bricks came from the ruins out here, behind, where these modern, I.M. Pei houses are now.

DS: Tell me about that. What was there when you bought?

WC: All those – small machine shops and little factories and whatnot that had filled the space between the backs of our houses here and Willings Alley – they were all (11:00) gone. But you had where the cellars were, the excavations were there, and there were old bricks and things. So that’s what I would do. I would go out every day – I was holding down a job, but when I could – I would get a wheelbarrow full of bricks, come back, and do another row or two on my garden wall.

DS: This walkway used to be Orianna Street.

WC: I think so. St. Joseph’s Walkway, St. Joseph’s Way, I think it’s called now.

DS: Is what it is now. Do you have any idea how much money you put into this restoration?

WC: Oh, that’s – probably $100,000, I guess. Things were much cheaper then, (12:00) and you could get contractors to give you reasonable quotes. My father did a good bit. And I –

DS: He was handy.

WC: Yes, very.

DS: And he enjoyed doing it, too.

WC: Yes, he did. He did.

DS: Tell me about – I have some names here, some old friends, that I think you know, too. Frank Graham?

WC: Well, you know, Frank Graham was a special friend. He was my boss at the Art Museum.

DS: Oh, he was?

WC: Yes. And I knew him for about a year or more before I bought this house. And I guess he was enthusiastic that I get something in the neighborhood as well. I knew him very well, and his mother, Marjorie. And curiously enough, when I – I lived (13:00) away from this place for a long time. I lived in New York. And then I lived in Chestnut Hill for about 25 years. But then when I moved here about seven or eight years ago, permanently, I realized that all those people that I knew back in that period of the l960s, they were all dead, with one or two exceptions.

DS: Frank Graham and his mother lived on Philip –

WC: 214 Spruce Street, at the corner of Philip.

DS: They had restored that house, had they?

WC: Yes, they had.

DS: And that was before you?

WC: Yes, it was.

DS: Anything significant about their house?

WC: Architecturally it was interesting. The recessed fake windows in the front (14:00) and the stairway, which was like – they call it a tower, but it juts off the back – had a nice garden and there were two rooms on each floor. And Frank put in two bathrooms, one on each of the upper floors. His mother lived on the top floor.

DS: She climbed all those steps?

WC: Yes, she said the exercise was good for her. And I bet it was.

DS: So we’re talking the fourth or fifth floor?

WC: No, the third floor. The third floor, but also down to the basement, because the kitchen was in the basement. And most meals were taken in the basement. It was cozy. It had a fireplace.

DS: Do you remember what he paid for it or when he bought it?

WC: He bought it probably about 1959, I think. He wouldn’t have paid much more than I paid for this place.

DS: Was that house occupied when he moved in?

WC: I think it was, but I’m not sure.

DS: It hadn’t been vacant – open to the elements. (15:00)

WC: No.

DS: Another old name: Gretchen Becker. [238 Spruce Street.]

WC: Oh, she was a good friend for years. She did a beautiful restoration of her little house on Spruce Street. She was the one who gave me the burner so I could make myself coffee when I bought the house. There were an awful lot of people – she was secretary in a law office. And then there was –

DS: Mae O’Neill.

WC: Mae O’Neill, certainly. She came a little later, but she was an awfully nice woman and restored her house, too.

DS: And that was 120 Delancey.

WC: I think so. And then there was Georganne Mears, but she came later. She built something new.

DS: Georganne and Bill were on Delancey in the 100 block, too [108 Delancey Street]. Their house was open to the elements and quite derelict. They restored the (16:00) front, but the inside had to be new.

WC: But it was Alice Rhoad. [He says Rhoads, but her name was Rhoad; 319 American Street.] She was a wonderful woman, too. She was head housekeeper at the Union League. She was a nice woman.

DS: And Bill Murtagh.

WC: They had the house together, but Bill never lived there.

DS: Bill was her nephew.

WC: He was her nephew, and they also shared a house up in Castine, Maine, with Mae O’Neill.

DS: Charlie Peterson?

WC: Charlie Peterson, crusty old Charlie Peterson. He was a nice neighbor. I remember the first time he showed me through his house [332 Spruce Street], he pointed out that in his garden all his flowers were red, white and blue.

DS: Oh, my.

WC: For what that’s worth.

DS: He lived on Spruce Street.

WC: Yes, he did. His house was neat and tidy, but I don’t think he ever gave (17:00) a dinner party in it. The dining room table was piled full of books and files and just the stuff of his research and whatnot.

DS: Were you involved in saving old –

WC: Bits and pieces?

DS: – Bits and pieces of houses?

WC: Yes, this mantelpiece and the one on the second floor – they both came from the house on the corner here.

DS: Spruce and Third [northwest corner].

WC: Spruce and Third. Was a perfectly good Federal house [309 Spruce Street]. Why they tore it down I have no idea. But Eve Taylor’s husband – what was his name?

DS: Frank.

WC: Frank Taylor rescued the mantle pieces and also the firebacks and sold them to me, I think for $100 or something like that. I was delighted to get them. (18:00) Everything in the house is period. Only two of the fireplaces are original, but the one in the first floor front is the best fireplace. It’s got King of Prussia marble, the gray and white marble. Very pretty.

DS: Any stories involved with the people who were saving things from the derelict houses that were going to be torn down?

WC: Well, there were. [Laughs] I don’t know. I can’t think of anything specific. Except we were very friendly and we entertained each other quite a lot. Christmas parties –

DS: Oh, this whole group of friends.

WC: Yes.

DS: Was there anybody else in this group?

WC: Well, there was June Matice and her husband. (19:00)

DS: June lived on –

WC: Pine. [319 Pine Street]

DS: Pine Street, about the 400 block.

WC: I mentioned Janet and Chick Lewis, didn’t I? They put – on the next block down – right on the corner of – not Philip – what’s the other street?

DS: Delancey? Cypress?

WC: The one that goes this way. Philip Street goes between –

DS: American.

WC: Yes, the corner of American. They put two, small 18 th century houses together. You know what I mean? [220 Spruce Street]

DS: I do.

WC: And in the garden you can see an enormous magnolia tree which they put in. Janet was all involved in this community. She worked very hard. Chick was not well. He had an oxygen canister by him all the time.

DS: But they restored that place, did they? (20:00)

WC: They did.

DS: There were all these people who had bought all the places and restored them and had a love for the old and wanting to preserve it. Is that correct?

WC: Yes. Absolutely.

DS: There was a real camaraderie.

WC: Yes, there was.

DS: And did you talk about it at social events?

WC: A lot. That was one of our main topics of conversation. And of course, as the neighborhood changed, everybody became – you’d have your eyes on some houses that had had nothing done to them. And as soon as somebody got it, you watched the process take place. And that was very interesting. I reminded you, maybe, that Metropolitan Hospital occupied a good bit of the lot across the street, and when that came down it was a parking lot for a long time. Then H2L2 built those modern houses, which has (21:00) taken me a long time to appreciate. But I’m quite used to them now.

DS: [Laughs] Did you like the Metropolitan Hospital?

WC: Not particularly. It was an old sugar mill or something like that.

DS: Before it was a hospital.

WC: No, I was glad to see—we were all glad to see the back of that. We had two good hospitals close by, Pennsylvania and Jefferson. We didn’t need that.

DS: Any stories about your restoring the house or Redevelopment Authority, contractors, or suppliers, or banks and loaning money, or neighbors? Old original neighbors?

WC: Well, I’ll tell you, next to me in 311 there was the most wonderful family of Ukrainians. It was a large family. I loved them all.

DS: What was their name?

WC: Matkowski. Now, the daughter Doris – I can’t think of her married (22:00) name [Dougherty] – but she is one of the two survivors, and she owns the house now.

[Transcriber’s note: See below, end of interview, for more about this family.]

DS: Does she live there?

WC: No. It has three apartments, I think. But I loved the Matkowskis. When I was working on the garden wall out here in the summertime, every day Mrs. Matkowski would come out with a big pitcher full of Kool Aid for me. And whenever I went next door to pass the time of day, which I did often, I’d be taken right to the kitchen where I’d have a plate put in front of me or whatever was made. It was so nice, I must say. They died off, one after the other, and I loved them, I really did. They were that nice.

DS: And you say they came from where?

WC: I’m not sure about Mr. Matkowski, but Mrs. Matkowski came here in (23:00) 1913 in steerage. And curiously enough, there’s an old, curmudgeonly fellow right around the corner called Fred or Frank – I don’t know his last name [Frank Bezotsky, 226 South Third Street]. And he told me once his mother came over on the same boat as Mrs. Matkowski from the Ukraine. And they all went to this Ukrainian church here on Pine Street [St. Andrew’s Ukrainian Catholic Church, 423 Pine Street], which unfortunately there’s nobody left in the neighborhood. And they’re all buried in the Ukrainian cemetery out on Cedar Road in Rockledge or somewhere.

DS: Any of the other old originals that you got to know?

WC: I didn’t get to know too many. I got to know some by sight, and I had my hair cut for a year or two, as long as Mr. – what’s his name?

DS: Koss. Al Koss. [221 Spruce Street] (24:00)

WC: Koss. That was nice.

DS: And did you know Frank, who lives back here on –

WC: Just to – his garden’s right there. Just to nod to. He keeps a low profile. I think he’s about 88 now.

DS: He’s still there.

WC: Yes.

DS: The money that you needed to do this was a loan from your father.

WC: It was a mortgage.

DS: A mortgage from your father. You didn’t have to deal with a bank.

WC: No, I did. We bought the property, and we got enough money, but it was called the Board of Trustees of the Looney Hoffman Fund. And they couldn’t have been nicer. The lawyer who – it was Frank Graham who recommended this lawyer, who had (25:00) been helpful to him when he needed a mortgage for his place. My father and I went to see him. I wish I could remember his name without looking it up. I can’t right now. But he was an old-fashioned lawyer, and I thought when I met him, “Oh, my goodness. He’s too died-in-the-wool. He’s going to think I’m absolutely off my rocker.” He couldn’t have been nicer. He got us a very nice mortgage, enough to buy the – we had to put money down, but enough to make it work. The Board of Trustees of the Looney Hoffman Fund it was called. And they couldn’t have been nicer and more helpful.

DS: Any stories about restoring it, or any other stories you want to include? (26:00)

WC: No, except when I moved in here, on a more or less permanent basis, about ten years ago, I’d walk around the neighborhood, and I knew almost nobody. But every time I’d pass one of the houses, it was like saying hello, or just nodding to an old friend. And there were a good many. There was Gerry Dye, across here, who did a beautiful restoration job. You know where the Three Bears Park is?

DS: Yes.

WC: That very nice, 18 th century house, the large one [322 Delancey Street]. There’s another house [324 Delancey Street]; it’s been very nicely remodeled, but it’s 20 th century remodeling. But he was a great friend of Eve and Frank Taylor’s. And also Gus Griswold and his wife [338 Spruce Street]. (27:00)

DS: And was this the Lavino house [326 Spruce Street], the one across the street that you’re talking about?

WC: No, I’m going across from Three Bears Park. I knew the Lavinos, too. They’re awfully nice.

DS: You’re talking about Delancey Street.

WC: Delancey Place.

DS: One of the houses across from –

WC: That was Gerry Dye’s house. He died about a year or two ago.

DS: Do you have other stories about these people, these friends?

WC: Well, I can just sort of think about what certain of them did to their houses. Another fellow who was very useful down here was Urban Moss [302 South Second Street]. Does he figure at all in your research?

DS: Tell us about Urban. He’s been mentioned once or twice.

WC: Urban Moss. He wasn’t an architect, but he did architecture. He wasn’t (28:00) trained as an architect. Do you know that group of houses in between – it’s on Pine Street – if you’re coming this way from Headhouse, there’s a group of houses all alike. They have the round stairways. He designed those. [Blackwell Court]

DS: They were not new, though.

WC: Yes, they were new. But they have an 18 th century flavor.

DS: North side of the street or south side of the street?

WC: South side.

DS: South side.

WC: And he had a house with a friend who was Director of the University of Pennsylvania Museum. What was his name? [Robert W. Dyson]

DS: They lived on Second Street [302 South Second Street].

WC: They had a house on Second Street.

DS: Between Spruce and Delancey.

WC: Between Spruce and Delancey.

DS: He was much involved in Newmarket, wasn’t he? Van Arkel and Moss. (29:00)

WC: Yes, he was. And then of course there was always Marian Carson. She had a pair of very handsome houses on Washington Square [706 South Washington Square]. That’s out of your – just a little over the edge, I guess. But she –

DS: Where on Washington Square?

WC: On the south side, right in the middle of the block.

DS: South side being where Hopkinson House is?

WC: Yes.

DS: And she restored those, did she? And lived there?

WC: Yes, she did. She was quite a connoisseur of documents and very knowledgeable. She actually wrote that book. What is it called? The Blue Book of Philadelphia (30:00) Furniture. I mean, her husband, her then husband, Mr. Horner, got credit for it, but she wrote it really, did most of the writing. I guess he did a lot of the research. And it’s been for years the Bible of Philadelphia furniture.

DS: You were in the antique business at one time?

WC: Yes, I was. When I came back from living in Europe I went into the antiques business in Chestnut Hill, in 1974. I stuck with it until almost the end of the century.

DS: You’re retired now?

WC: Yes, I did appraisals as well.

DS: Furniture appraisals?

WC: Anything art, contents of houses, art and antiques, the works.

DS: That’s what you did at the Art Museum?

WC: No, when I graduated from Penn, I got my master’s in Art History. I (31:00) needed a job, and Frank Graham ran the education department. He gave me a job as assistant. I stayed there for about five or six years.

[Tape is turned off, then on again]

DS: Those three contemporary houses that are along the west side of Third Street between Spruce and Walnut that used to be some type of a furniture manufacturing –

WC: It may have been, but whatever was there they tore down. Those houses are all new. And I only knew two people who lived in one. Billy Morris [Mrs. Herbert Cameron Morris] had the biggest establishment [252 South Third Street], because she had a conservatory put on at the back, plus the garages. And then Deborah Dilworth lived in one for a while [256 South Third Street]. But Billy Morris was as rich as Croesus, of course, with TastyKake and all that. (32:00)

DS: Rich as what?

WC: Croesus.

DS: Croesus?

WC: Isn’t that somebody from mythology? I don’t know. I use the expression. I really should find out what it is. But she was a nifty woman. And I do remember, that picture of Mrs. Graham reminds me: Billy had I think it was a Red Cross group that met at her house once a month. And they would spend the morning stitching up little white garments – for dead children – which got sent to South America, because apparently a lot of children died down there, and they put these little angel gowns on them. That was what they did. And they had a nice luncheon, after which they played bridge. [Laughs] That reminds me of that. (33:00)

[Tape is turned off, then on again.]

WC: The house you can see across the garden when the leaves are off the trees is one of the Bouvier houses on the west side of Third Street. That’s where the nuns lived when they had the Catholic school. It was back here. The third floor from here you can see – all the windows are stained glass, leaded glass windows. And then the Crumlishes lived there, and it’s changed hand any number of times after that, and I don’t know anybody.

DS: And Mr. Crumlish was? [262 South Third Street]

WC: He was a lawyer and a judge, I think.

DS: Yes.

[Tape is turned off, then on again.]

WC: OK, am I there? You asked me if there was any crime in those years (34:00) when I was doing this. There probably was, but not much. But I do remember one morning being awakened by the sound of I didn’t know what at the door in the side hall. And I went down, and there were three little, pre-teen boys, outside with a blow torch, aiming it at the putty, I presume just to loosen the putty. And they’d take out a window so that would have access to the house. I watched them through – in any case, I scared them off.

DS: And then you were telling me about the wagons.

WC: Yes, in those days, there would be men with a horse and wagon who would come by. You would hear them.

DS: In the morning?

WC: In the mornings, early, almost before dawn. And if you had anything lying (35:00 ) out, like copper or scrap iron or anything like that, chances are it wouldn’t be there when you went down to look for it. [Laughs] You know, they were making a living in the only way they knew how.

DS: Will, thank you very much.

[End of interview.]

Additions that the narrator made when he reviewed the transcript: The Matkowski family who lived at 311 Spruce Street; Elizabeth Mickle also talks about the Matkowski family; she pronounces their name Mitkowski. The parents were Kathryn and Andrew Matkowski. The children that Mr. Chandlee knew:

Joe worked on the docks. Mary worked as a seamstress. Walter was a hairdresser downtown, a “designer.” Mitsy worked in a hotel, lived with her son Roy at 311 Spruce Street. Doris was a seamstress and the youngest of the children. Her married name was Dougherty, and she owned 311 Spruce Street at the time of the interview. John worked at Food Fair. Emil worked for the city. Pauline worked for the electric company.

Neighbors and friends mentioned by name:

Gretchen Becker, 238 Spruce

Frank Bezotsky, 226 S. Third

Marion Carson and her husband, Mr. Horner, 706 S. Washington Square

Judge Crumlish and his wife, 262 S. Third

Deborah Dilworth, 256 S. Third

Gerry Dye, 332 Delancey

Frank Graham and Marjorie Graham (his mother) 214 Spruce

Gus Griswold and his wife, 332 Spruce

Al Koss, the barber, 221 Spruce

Lavino family, 336 Spruce

Janet and Chick Lewis, 220 Spruce

June Matice and her husband, 319 Pine

Matkowski family, 311 Spruce

Georganne and Bill Mears, 108 Delancey

Billy Morris (Mrs. Herbert Cameron Morris) 252 S. Third

Urban Moss and Bob Dyson, 302 S. Second

Mae O’Neill, 120 Delancey

Charlie Peterson, 332 Spruce

Alice Rhoad and Bill Murtagh (her nephew), 319 S. American

Eve and Frank Taylor (no address)